NATO Press Briefing Shea & Jertz - 10 May 1999

JAMIE SHEA:
Ladies and Gentlemen, Good Afternoon to you all, welcome to our daily
briefing.


I would like to begin today by simply stressing that we had a large number
of military operations over Yugoslavia last night, a number of sorties were
planned, and I will ask General Jertz in just a few moments, as always, to
up-date you on the details of that.


This evening the Secretary General, Javier Solana, will be in Bonn. He
will have dinner with Chancellor Schroeder and together at that dinner they
will review the progress in our air operations thus far, as well as the
progress in the diplomatic activities. As you know, this week Chancellor
Schroeder is going on behalf of the EU Presidency to Beijing where he will,
I am certain, convey the regrets of the Allies for the mistaken attack
against the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade at the weekend, and he will also
brief the Chinese government on the efforts under way, to which Germany has
very significantly contributed in the G8 framework to find a political and
diplomatic solution to the crisis in Kosovo and I am sure he will appeal
for the support of the Chinese government in helping in the UN to complete
those efforts expeditiously as one of the best ways of solving this crisis.


I should also add that over the weekend, on behalf of the North Atlantic
Council, the Danish and Polish Ambassadors in Beijing made a demarche to
the Chinese Foreign Ministry on behalf of the Alliance.


On the humanitarian front in the region, NATO continues to do its utmost to
make life as comfortable as we can for the refugees and to relieve their
suffering. In Albania the situation remains stable. Yesterday, with the
support of the NATO forces, 1,500 refugees were evacuated away from Kukes
towards refugee camps inland. The NATO forces in AFOR, Albania Force, are
currently building centres for 50,000 refugees and we hope that all of
those construction projects will be complete by the end of this month and
that the work by engineers of the NATO forces to upgrade the road between
Puke and Kukes, which is very important for evacuations of refugees, will
be completed by 17 May. We need more engineers, however, to do this work;
engineers are extremely important in these type of operations and we hope
that NATO governments will be able to provide some.


But we very much welcome the news given by the British Secretary of
Defence, George Robertson, in London this morning that the UK will send an
extra 200 troops to the region, to Albania, as well as redeploy on a
temporary basis 1,000 from the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to
Albania to help in this business of camp construction and helping to
transfer refugees from the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to
Albania, where they can be cared for. 90 such refugees are being moved
today and NATO forces are of course fully at the ready to help with that
transportation work. And in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, the
Arc, the Alliance Rapid Reaction Corps troops continue to provide
assistance at the Segrani camp. So we are very much involved still, as you
can see, in all of those efforts. We are going to care for the victims of
Milosevic until such time as we can return them safely to their homes.


At the same time, NATO very warmly welcomes the decision of EU Finance
Ministers just a few moments ago on behalf of the General Affairs Council,
or acting as the General Affairs Council of the European Union, to make
formal and official and give immediate effect to a number of sanctions
against Belgrade. 300 of the most senior officials of the Belgrade
government, including President Milosevic and his family members, will not
be able to have visas to travel to the European Union. Their crimes have
made them prisoners in their own family henceforth. At the same time the
EU is extending its freeze on assets held by Yugoslav corporations abroad
in the European Union. It has again continued and affirmed its ban on
commercial flights and it has confirmed its ban on export credits, which
have also been extended now to the private sector. And finally it has
confirmed its ban on the export of materials that can be used by the
Yugoslav security forces to continue their campaign of internal repression
in Kosovo.


So it is not simply NATO which is isolating President Milosevic, it is the
European Union and the entire international community. Rarely in history
has one state been so isolated politically, militarily, economically and
geographically. This cannot be something which the Yugoslav people need or
want at the present time, but it is the result of the counter-productive
policies of their leadership.


I now ask General Jertz to give you his daily military operational up-date
and then we will go into questions in the usual fashion.


GENERAL JERTZ:
Thank you very much, Jamie. Good Afternoon, Ladies and Gentlemen.


Let me start with a firm statement today. The air operations planned in
the last 24 hours were at the same level as it was in the last weeks. Even
though within Kosovo a number of our operations have been cancelled due to
weather in the target areas, we were able to strike tanks, armoured
personnel carriers, trucks and troops in the area of Suva Reka, Podujevo,
Junic and Metrovica, where we also struck a radio relay site. At Pristina
we attacked a petroleum facility, thus continuing to cut the fuel supplies
and reducing the mobility of the fielded Serbian forces.


I have two videos to show you today. The first demonstrates once again our
ability to find and target Serbian military units in the field. This Serb
patrol will no longer be operating within Kosovo.


The second video also shows the absolutely outstanding and professional job
our NATO air crews are doing. This attack, like many, was at night against
a defended target. The target is a bridge near Cuprija. The co-ordination
and the accuracy of this flight of NATO aircraft is self-evident. As I
have stressed, lines of communication are essential to the Serbian military
operations against the Kosovars. Military supplies will not pass over this
bridge for quite some time, again cutting into the mobility and
sustainability of the forces in the field.


Elsewhere in Yugoslavia we attacked targets as shown, including Nis
airfield. But as already mentioned at the beginning, the weather precluded
attacks against many of our other targets.


I suspect that some of you are becoming somewhat tired of hearing me tell
you how often our operations, mainly against forces on the ground, have
been affected by weather. I would like to take a few minutes and talk
about this in a little more detail.


Let me start with a good message on the military look. We were effective.
First, since the air operation began, the majority of days the weather has
been unfavourable or marginal. This graphic shows the weather history thus
far. I want you to fully understand, generally NATO has the capability to
operate through solid cloud cover and we can take the fight to the enemy in
any weather. However, for a variety of reasons we impose restrictions on
our operations in bad weather. The single biggest reason is our commitment
to ensuring we strike only military and military-related targets. You all
understand that we are using a variety of precision weapons. Many of the
weapons require laser guidance and as you know, you cannot by and large
use laser guidance through very thick cloud cover. Also other weapons of
course require that we see the target throughout the attack to ensure
precision and to make sure that we don't hit somebody who should not be hit.


Many people will immediately ask then why don't you just fly below the
weather? Let me reiterate on that. We don't go below the clouds or into
the clouds at low altitude for several reasons. First of all, let me
emphasise that of course under special circumstances we do not have to fly
low to be successful, as I already indicated. But coming back to the
statement, flying below the clouds is more dangerous from a technical
standpoint. It puts our NATO air crews down into the range of tactical
surface to air missiles, anti-aircraft artillery and of course small arms
fire. It also highlights aircraft against the clouds, making them easier
to see and target from the ground.


If our crews fly within the clouds at these low altitudes there are also
other dangers of course. Kosovo, as you know, is a very mountainous area.
You may recall this slide which I showed you the other day. The peaks of
these mountains are many times enveloped by the clouds, air crews are
always very careful about avoiding terrain.
Believe me, airplanes and mountains don't mix very well. When the crews
fly a combat mission, reacting against threats and manoeuvring, you can
understand there is an increased danger of becoming distracted and
colliding with the terrain. And you know I am an airman and I really can
confirm that.


Speaking of reacting against threats, it also much more difficult to
manoeuvre away from a missile or anti-aircraft artillery fire when you are
in a cloud. You can't easily fight what you can't see. Clear air gives
our crews a much better fighting chance to survive these engagements. For
these and other reasons the weather affects our operations under the
circumstances I just explained.


We make these weather decisions with regard to objectives of the air
campaign, in consideration to minimise the risks to the air crews and in
consideration of innocent civilians. And so there are many days when I
must report to you that once again weather hampered our operations.


One other point concerning the weather while it hampers our operations,
unfortunately it also provides some cover for the Serbian military to
continue their ruthless attacks. Unfortunately they try, and they do, take
advantage of these times to conduct ground and air operations which have
continued to result in what can only be called atrocities. Thus it is very
important for us to continue our efforts with highest priority, to identify
their locations, I am talking aircraft, helicopter, to pin them down and
finally to destroy them so they cannot continue to threaten innocent
victims from the air nor from the ground.


The following sequence of images are of five villages and towns in Kosovo.
They show homes and businesses of ordinary Kosovar Albanians which have
been demolished, burned or in some of these shots you can still see them
burning. These, Ladies and Gentlemen, are the results of Serbian military
and special police attacks against civilians. None of these targets were
legitimate military targets and without doubt none of the damage was caused
by NATO attacks.


Finally, I would like to provide you with my up-date on our continuing
humanitarian effort. Yesterday there were 12 aid flights into Albania and
18 flights into the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia . This brings
our total effort to 763 flights to Albania and 572 flights to Former
Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia thus far. The running totals of our aid
airlift are shown once again on this slide.


Before I finish, let me address to you on an additional point : it is a
matter of outstanding leadership that the highest ranking responsible
general is visiting his troops in combat to get the best impression of the
performance of the troops, but also of course to give the men and women who
are risking their lives to save others, a chance to address their leader.
I am talking about General Clark, SACEUR - my boss - visiting the Aviano
aircraft base in Italy yesterday, Aviano being the centre of NATO's air
campaign as part of his regular visits to the troops.


General Clark found the Servicemen and women focused and confident. They
had, like he said, their heads in the fight and morale was outstanding.
They said they were determined to do what it took to see the job through.
What else could we expect? General Clark spoke to each Squadron in turn.
He congratulated the air crews on the superb and courageous way in which
they have been carrying out their mission. He also spoke to the Commanders
on operational issues, and in particular he wanted to talk to the unsung
heroes of the air campaign, without denying other heroes of course - the
Marines from the 5th Squadron of prowlers who day after day, night after
night, go out up front to jam enemy radars so that the fighter-bombers
could complete and can complete their run. He also commemorates the ground
crews who keep the aircraft up in the air at peak performance despite the
gruelling schedule. They make sure that the aircraft are ready to go,
fixing problems, working overnight in sun and rain. They don't get the
recognition because they don't fly the missions, but they are the people
who keep this show on the road.


This, Ladies and Gentlemen, concludes my part of the briefing.


JAKE LYNCH, SKY NEWS:
As you said earlier, the Yugoslav government have petitioned the
International Court of Justice in The Hague against 10 nations who are NATO
members. If that court ultimately decides that those 10 have been acting
in breach of international law, will NATO bring Operation Allied Force to a
halt in response?


JAMIE SHEA:
Jake, thank you for that question. As you know, NATO always obeys the
injunctions of international law and that is the reason why our aircraft
are flying over Yugoslavia at this moment, because we are trying to ensure
that President Milosevic finally heeds what three UN Security Council
resolutions - 1160, 1199 and 1203 - have called on him to do. We obey
international law. I think if you look at President Milosevic's record, he
is only interested in international law when it suits his purposes, when he
feels that he has something to get out of it. When it is not convenient
for him, as in heeding these three UN Security Council resolutions, or as
in handing over all of the indicted war criminals that he is protecting on
his territory, or granting the Chief Prosecutor of the International
Criminal Tribunal a visa, when it doesn't suit him, he tends to ignore it.
But international law is not something that you can pick and choose. I
remember the phrase of Louis XIV who used to say "L'Etat c'est moi".
Well I think President Milosevic has a modern day version about law : "La
loi, c'est moi". But no, I am very sorry, you cannot decide yourself what
international law is and what it isn't. International law is international
law. The Allies obey it and I believe that president Milosevic has to obey
it too. And as for the 10 NATO governments that have been summoned to
appear, they are perfectly able to defend themselves, and they will defend
themselves, and vigorously too. We don't lack the winning arguments when
it comes to this.


JONATHAN MARCUS, BBC :
Back to the Chinese Embassy, the Chinese government is still insisting on a
full apology and a full scale investigation of what went wrong. Given that
the problems are buried so deep in essentially the American intelligence
process, do you think that NATO will be able to give a comprehensive
read-out of what went wrong to the Chinese government, not least since you
haven't been able to share one with us at this stage?


JAMIE SHEA:
We have clearly identified where the problem came from and that is the most
important thing to do. Secondly, we have clearly taken action to make sure
that that glitch, that problem in the system doesn't repeat itself and of
course that is the other priority thing to do. General Clark, SACEUR, has
ordered a comprehensive review of the operational procedures and the
targeting databases and as a result, we are confident that the Chinese
incident was an anomaly, a tragic and regrettable anomaly, but an anomaly
nonetheless and that we have taken measures to ensure it won't happen
again. But as you know, I am not going to comment on targeting policy, I
comment in these briefings on a great number of things, and very willingly,
but I am not going to comment on targeting policy.


MICHAEL JUNGWIRTH, KLEINE ZEITUNG :
Two questions : for two weeks NATO has tried to find a decision on
implementing the oil embargo. Could you give us an up-date on the
discussion? And secondly, there have been reports that General Clark wants
to deploy missiles in the neighbouring countries like Croatia, could you
give us some details on that?


JAMIE SHEA:
The oil embargo is in place, it is being implemented. A number of
countries are doing precisely that and President Milosevic today has to
think very hard about how he is going to get oil and whether he has got the
money in the kitty to pay the higher prices that come from seeking oil from
fewer and fewer sources. That is what is important.


As far as the visit and search regime is concerned, this is before the
Military Committee at the moment, a reworked operational concept that takes
into account the political factors that had to be weighed, and I
understand, I know, it will be back up before the North Atlantic Council
very soon. Again, there will be a visit and search regime, it will be one
in which all Allies will participate and it will be effective. But the
most important thing is for the oil not to leave ports in the first place,
then of course it is less important whether you have a visit and search
regime at the other end, but there will be one. And let me also say that
the Council is currently looking at some advice from the NATO military
authorities with respect to deploying part of the Standing Atlantic Force
of NATO to the Mediterranean to provide the extra assets which will be
necessary to implement a visit and search regime.


As for Croatia, we have excellent cooperation with Croatia. Croatia, as
you know, is part of the Group of Seven with whom we meet on a regular
basis between NATO and the neighbouring countries. We are extremely
grateful to Croatia for the solidarity it has shown, particularly in
implementing the oil embargo, turning off its pipeline, which it did very
early on in this crisis, and anything that we can do to provide a 360
degree isolation of Yugoslavia is something of course that we will pursue,
but I am not going to comment on any specific initiatives or decisions at
the present time.


AUGUSTIN PALOKAJ, KOHA DITORE :
General Jertz, you didn't speak today about the activities of the ground
troops in Kosovo. There is some information that they launched their
offensive in the area of Ferisi, where there are more than 100,000
displaced persons.


GENERAL JERTZ:
You are well aware of the fact that I do comment normally on ground troop
activities, but in this case I need to have some more information on it and
I will come back to you once I have it.


I think I am still in a position to answer your question on the question of
additional efforts. Of course SACEUR welcomes all assets which
operationally and militarily are needed. However, as plans are going
forward to end this conflict, I am not in a position to comment on the more
detailed plans which we are having at the present time.


DOUG HAMILTON, REUTERS:
Jamie, a name from the past has cropped up in Belgrade today I think that
might send shivers down the spine of some NATO military people, it's
Yasushi Akashi, the Japanese diplomat who is UNPROFOR days. He has talked
to Milosevic and he said Milosevic is willing to discuss everything on the
G8's plate but he wants a small force, lightly-armed, under the United
Nations. How does NATO take this?


General Jertz, if I could just follow up on the previous question, can you
say in general what would be the purpose of putting these US Army ATAACMS
missiles down in Dalmatia, would it be for Montenegro, would it be for Kosovo?


And can we return to the question of a few days ago? What do you know
about the jugoslav navy activities blockading supposedly Montenegro ports?


JAMIE SHEA:
Doug, on this topic, I saw on the wires briefly before arriving here the
remarks of Mr. Akashi. If it is true, then of course it would suggest that
President Milosevic is beginning to feel the pressure and is beginning to
realise that sooner or later he is going to have no choice but to meet the
demands of the international community and if now wisdom is telling him
that it is better for him and his people that it be sooner, then that would
be good news indeed but we have to be a bit cautious.


First of all, again, we need to hear this from President Milosevic himself;
he has a voice and therefore he can tell us himself and that would be the
most credible source - you, a journalist, I am sure would agree with that.
Secondly, he does seem to be somewhat ambivalent about this international
security force, at least in the wire reports that I have seen and that
would have to be elucidated. As far as we are concerned, it has to be a
force with the weapons, with the rules of engagement, with the robust
command-and-control, with the strong mandate to do the job effectively,
not some sort of eviscerated force which Milosevic feels that he can
control or hoodwink. We are not going to go down that road. So it could
be very encouraging but I think we need to know a little bit more before I
can give you a firm reaction but certainly I would like to believe that
President Milosevic now knows that his only exit strategy is to say to our
five conditions: "Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!"


MAJOR GENERAL JERTZ:
Once again of course, as I said, SACEUR is very much interested in all the
assets which would be capable of let us say pinpointing targets even better
than aircraft do because aircraft are flying fast and sometimes it is very
difficult, especially when those targets on the ground are camouflaged.
For sure I can tell you that there are no plans that any of the
ground-based artillery or attack assets if they come in would be inside
Kosovo or would be inside Serbia, they would be in areas where countries
would allow us to use them.


On the navy question, I remember one report of one ship going into Bar but
the navy itself, the military navy, is not moving at all, they do try to
hide, they do move around within the harbour, try to get their ship
sheltered but there is no military activity whatsoever.


JAMIE SHEA:
I can add, if I may, General, a few things here. I have already expressed
our very firm opposition to the notion of a Yugoslav blockade. The
Yugoslavs are now blockading their own country, this is a supreme irony in
terms of preventing materials coming into Montenegro which is part of their
own Federation. Other countries normally have sanctions against other
countries but it is very rare for a country to blockade itself! Having
said that, I understand that it is only Bar at the moment which is the
subject of the blockade by the Yugoslav navy and that therefore there are
possibilities, Doug, of essential supplies arriving for Montenegro via
other sources.


A few days ago, a delegation of a NATO country visited President Dukanovic
and was able to give him some financial assistance, some millions of
dollars, which by the way he used to pay his police forces and it is very
important because those police forces have been very loyal to President
Dukanovic, commendably so, to the democratically-elected authority of their
country that that financial assistance should be forthcoming. I think
that is obviously a priority area for the time being.


You will note of course from today's newspapers the very strong commitment
to democratic values of President Dukanovic in the joint ??? piece that he
penned with Zoran Bindic (phon) of course and it is admirable that despite
the enormous pressure that he is under, he continues to stand for democracy
and to continue to move towards liberalisation. If that's what he can do
under the type of pressure he is under, think what he will be able to
achieve when peace comes to that region! It is a very encouraging sign.


GEORGE:
Is it enough to get Milosevic's approval - agreement - on the five points?
The UCK for the time being rejects the G8 proposal, is it something that
you can ignore?


JAMIE SHEA:
They signed the Rambouillet commitments, George, as you well know. It is
not all of the UCK leaders that have expressed the same opposition by the
way, there are different views within the UCK, let's be clear about this.
There is a moderate wing but there are obviously more extreme wings, you
have that in these kind of movements but I would not believe that the
rejectionist front speaks for the majority. You have also from other
leaders of the Kosovar community - and the UCK does not speak for all of
the Kosovar Albanian community - statements of support, particularly from
Mr. Rugova, in recent days and I would urge all Kosovar Albanians to firmly
support the five NATO conditions and the G8 principles because is the best
deal available for now and in the future to secure their basic human
rights, they are the winners and not the losers from those principles and I
hope that they would not react overhastily and would consider and realise
that those principles are being done for the Kosovar Albanians and that
they should support those principles.


NEIL:
Jamie, picking up on your response to that, what concerns do you have about
the deep and deepening divisions within the Kosovar leadership ranks?


Secondly, in terms of Rugova himself, it has been a bit curious because he
has been a very compromised figure in recent weeks and when he gave his
press conference on Thursday he never made clear whether he was actually
negotiating with Milosevic of his own free will or not, he indicated
essentially that he was by not saying otherwise and he is certainly not
held in great repute among most Kosovar Albanians now. Is NATO perhaps
making a mistake by casting a plot too firmly with him at the moment?


JAMIE SHEA:
Neil, good question obviously. Firstly, he has never signed a piece of
paper with Milosevic - that is important - and we all know that he has been
under duress, that is clear, during the period when he remained behind in
Kosovo. What he has said since he left Kosovo shows that he is still the
same Ibrahim Rugova in what he has stood up for - Rambouillet, autonomy, an
international security force in which NATO would play a very important
role, the withdrawal of the Serb forces - he has been very clear about that
and therefore, despite the intimidation, clearly his mind is still free and
we welcome that very much indeed because once he has been outside Kosovo he
has been able of course to speak his mind so I therefore like to believe
what he said in Rome recently or Bonn as opposed to what he said while he
was still in Pristina or being taken to Belgrade.


There have been divisions among the Kosovar Albanians but they came
together at Rambouillet when they saw that the stakes were high, when they
saw that there was an opportunity and they sank their differences and
signed and I hope that they would have the foresight and wisdom to do the
same when it comes to the principles of the Alliance and the G8 because
those principles have been designed for them first and foremost. What we
are doing in all of this is for the Kosovar Albanians, so that they should
be the beneficiaries but they too have got to help us to get this right and
as I say, I hope that they would put statesmanship before partisan interest.


QUESTION:
I wonder if you could clear up some confusion over the recent days. You
have both tried to convey the sense that the NATO air force had got total
domination of the skies over Kosovo and yet at the same time you have
described today explanations of why you can't do certain things, why we
can't have Apache helicopters, why we can't fly low. These seem
inconsistent with the idea that you have total domination of the skies.


Similarly in recent days, you put up some slides and showed how the
Yugoslavian forces had been withdrawing into a few enclaves and had been
"more interested" I think were your words, in survival than they have been
in attacking Kosovars and yet we also hear reports from our colleagues at
the refugee camps that they are coming in, that there have been recent
expulsions, there is this report today of an offensive in the area where
there are a large number of internal refugees.


These things seem a little inconsistent. Do you feel that you have
stopped the military actions and are you in control of the skies and have
got them hunkered down or is that not true? There seems to be conflicting
information from your own briefings over the course of the last several days.


MAJOR GENERAL JERTZ:
I hope you haven't had the feeling that I said that I am giving you
different information on what I am saying. I think I really was in broad
terms explaining to you that for instance by trying to avoid collateral
damage we are not using weapon systems which we could use if we were as
brutal and as cruel as Milosevic is. That's one of the reasons of course
why it takes longer to really come to an end.


On the other hand, I also said that we have to always think about our
aircrews when we are flying below clouds, that is why I mentioned it just a
few minutes ago. We do have to make sure that the risk involved on our
crew when they are flying low is bearable by the tactical leader so we are
always in the position to either fly higher, not attacking when we are
above the clouds because of collateral damage and on the other hand, of
course we do fly lower but unfortunately - and I was very honest about that
- in some cases when the weather is bad the enemy takes advantage of that
knowing that he could start to fly with his helicopters and with some other
artillery pieces travelling around without being punished from the air and
that is why I said we are continuously having our emphasis on stopping and
destroying and pinning down pieces like helicopters and aircraft. Even
though he has not used aircraft in the attack area since the first days of
the war, there are still some helicopters left which we are checking and it
will not take very much longer and they will be all gone.


On fielded forces, I will give you the briefing on Thursday and I will come
up with an update in the future. Here we really pinned them down but of
course once again we could not so far pin them down totally.


JAMIE SHEA:
That is obviously a question more for General Jertz than for myself but
look at the statistics. We have flown 19,000 sorties and we have lost two
aircraft so what would you conclude about NATO's ability to dominate the
air space? I think for me the conclusion is clear that yes, by and large
we do but there is no room for complacency. We will never be complacent.
There is always a possibility that the Yugoslavs will have enough residual
air defence to pose a threat and we have to take it into account but if you
look at the statistics, they don't suggest that it has been an
uncontrollable problem for our pilots thus far.


Secondly, we have been honest from this platform that we have not been able
to prevent yet the ethnic cleansing. It was going on a long time before we
intervened and when you have somebody like Milosevic who is determined to
use whatever resources he has to pursue it, then what conclusion do you
draw? I draw the conclusion that every massacre is another reason to press
on, every massacre makes it clear that we are going to press on because
what counts is reversing that crime and we are going to reverse that crime,
we are not going to abandon these poor people no matter how much they have
suffered and there is a fundamental difference here, that if we weren't
doing this, they would be suffering without any redress, now they are
going to have redress, they are going to have justice. It won't
unfortunately apply to everybody because many will have lost their lives
but the responsibility for that is not with NATO, the responsibility for
the crime is with the individual who pulls the trigger, not with the police
force that tries to prevent it and that is clear, it will be on Milosevic
for ever.


QUESTION:
General, have you got now a concrete time-table concerning the involvement
of the Apache helicopters?


MAJOR GENERAL JERTZ:
I already explained to you how difficult it is to really get the Apaches
operational with all the aspects I was talking about so still there is no
time-table but it will be in the near future.


KRISTINA, RTL Club:
There are reports that the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights said that
civilians killed or injured in NATO bombing can be counted as human rights
victims. Can you please comment on that.


I also have another question. more and more NATO soldiers are working for
the humanitarian aid in Albania and Macedonia. Can you give us a figure of
how many soldiers are there right now and how many more are getting there
in the next future?


JAMIE SHEA:
OK, thanks for those questions. I have been monitoring very closely of
course the remarks of Mary Robinson and she has made it clear that she
blames Milosevic for this and I don't think there is any ambiguity about
what she has been saying on the trip to the region. She has talked about
human rights being most flagrantly violated in Kosovo, she has told of
torture, mass killings - I am reading - forceful separation of families,
stripping of personal documents, that these were being carried out by army
police and paramilitaries. NATO doesn't have any army police and
paramilitaries on the ground in Kosovo so I think that Mary Robinson is
being truthful and accurate as to where these human rights abuses are
coming from. She has also called upon NATO to take every means available
to avoid inflicting harm on civilians and I join her wholeheartedly, NATO
should and will take every conceivable precaution not to inflict harm on
civilians so I can endorse virtually everything that Mary Robinson has said.


As for the troops, perhaps General Jertz will allow me to comment on that,
but we have already a sizeable force of just under 7,000 in Albania at the
moment with a temporary support, as you know, by UK forces and ARRC forces
just over the border in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia ( ) so
that is a sizeable force for the humanitarian effort and we have, as you
know, coming up to 16,000 in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia so
as far as troops necessary for the humanitarian effort is concerned I think
we have enough but the real problem is not numbers, it is a question of
specific capacities and certainly when it comes to putting up tents or
building tent-cities, providing water sanitation, field hospitals,
improving roads, engineers are extremely important and we would like to
have some more engineers and we will see if our governments can contribute
them.


QUESTION:
Jamie, can you say a little bit more about the question of the armament
that would be involved with an eventual international force? Milosevic
apparently is willing to entertain the idea of a force that goes in
carrying defensive side-arms, you said it needs to be more heavily-armed
than that. How much more heavily-armed? Do you need to have tanks,
Bradley vehicles, what else can you say by way of elaboration?


JAMIE SHEA:
General Jertz will probably have a more professional view on this one than
me and I don't yet have a table of necessary equipment but you saw with the
IFOR/SFOR operation in Bosnia that you have to have first of all a lot of
mobility in terms of helicopters to go around quickly to deal with any
incidents, you need to have the type of armour and equipment that is going
to ensure that people take you seriously, that nobody will try in any way
to intimidate or challenge the force and to the extent that that heavy
armour is there, as we have seen with SFOR, incidents simply don't occur,
you deter and therefore by deterring incidents, you create a situation
where you are less likely to be called upon and I think that is a very
valuable lesson - deterrence works in other situations as well. And some
of the equipment that has been pre-positioned in the Enabling Force under
General Jackson in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia of course is
heavy armour so I can't at the end of the day give you a number of tanks or
a number of Bradleys or armoured personnel carriers, that is for the
military planners to come up with, but we certainly do not see side-arms as
being efficient to ensure either force-protection or the necessary degree
of respect for the force to accomplish its mission.


The OSCE civilian mission was allowed side-arms for self-protection in many
cases by Milosevic but you could see that it still didn't help them when it
came to being denied access to areas where so-called "exercises" were going
on, it didn't stop them being held up at the border for days while their
cars were systematically searched in contravention of the diplomatic rules
and even the agreement that Milosevic signed with the Chairman-in-Office of
the OSCE, Foreign Minister Geremek of Poland at the time so I think when it
comes to Milosevic you need to, I am afraid, err on the side of caution
rather than on the side of naïve hope.


MAJOR GENERAL JERTZ:
Let me come back to Bosnia. I tend to do that because I was involved in
that area also. At the beginning, from 1992 to 1995 there were UNPROFOR,
protection forces, lightly-armed with just a gun and nothing else and they
couldn't do the job, even though they were UN-mandated they just couldn't
do the job and as Jamie already mentioned, SFOR-type soldiers equipped with
artillery, tanks, guns and so on - what we call a "robust force" - that is
the one we are looking for that. Other than that, there is no sense going
in, plus of course it also depends on the situation, is it a permissive
environment, you have to take the geography into consideration and so on.
The plans are already made up but we are not going into more details on
that, as you can imagine.


FRANCE 2:
I have a question for General Jertz and of course, Jamie, a wrap-up in
French would be helpful at the end.


General, from all the intelligence that you have gathered on things
happening within Kosovo, is there such a thing as a pattern in terms of how
the Yugoslav army and the special forces split their tasks? Has this
pattern changed since the beginning of the operation? My question
includes not only military activity but also other types of activities, be
it arson, deportation and what else.


MAJOR GENERAL JERTZ:
In fact, from what we see it is almost about the same every time. The
heavily-armed VJ, as we are calling them, first surrounds the villages,
then the special police go into the village, displacing persons, attacking
houses and then the paramilitary - like Arkan's Tigers for instance - very
unfortunately fulfilling the job and ending the job and we saw that every
time it is almost the same pattern and it hasn't changed since the
beginning.


JAMIE SHEA:
Pour répondre en français je crois qu'il y a 3 éléments à signaler,
d'abord qu'il y a toujours des opérations très intenses des forces
spéciales de l'armée Yougoslave le long de la frontière albanaise pour
couper le couloir créé par les forces de l'Armée de Libération du Kosovo et
dans la région de Junik et également pour essayer de détruire les
derniers postes de l'Armée de Libération du Kosovo dans les montagnes de
la région.


Il est intéressant que Milosevic doit maintenant faire appel à des forces
spéciales parce que visiblement l'armée conventionnelle n'arrive plus à
faire le travail. Surtout après les dégâts qui lui ont été infligés par
les forces de l'OTAN.


Troisième chose à signaler c'est le nettoyage ethnique dans une zone qui
va du Nord, Pec vers le Sud pour aboutir à Pizren en passant par Jakovica.
Nous avons vus ces derniers temps un nettoyage ethnique à Jakovica, un
nettoyage ethnique à Pizren et maintenant presque tous les réfugiés qui
arrivent en Albanie proviennent des villages autour de Pec.


Quatrième élément à signaler comme l'a dit le général Jertz, la séparation
des hommes entre 15 ans et 60 ans en âge militaire des autres. Et il y a
beaucoup trop maintenant de témoignages de réfugiés que vous lisez
d'ailleurs dans vos journaux tous les jours pour ne pas croire à un
phénomène systématiquement planifié.


Par exemple, entre 50 et 60 dans le village de Zalc, près de Pec l'autre
jour, entre 8 et 30 à Kobovac près d'Istok, 300 hommes qui ont été saisis
dans un village qui s'appellent Durakovac et je vais vous épargner tous les
détails.


Mais je veux souligner une chose, pour nous ici à l'OTAN cela, c'est la
Une de l'actualité tous les jours, c'est notre Une de l'actualité, c'est
notre première page tous les jours. Même si le cycle un peu répétitif de
toutes ces atrocités et horreurs peuvent créer un sentiment d'apathie ou
de fatigue mais pas pour nous ici. Pour nous ça c'est la vraie histoire
qu'on le veuille ou non du conflit au Kosovo et toutes ces vies ont pour
nous une valeur aussi importante que n'importe quelle autre vie. Donc
malheureusement cette campagne continue.


STEPHEN DIERCKX, VRT:
Two brief questions if I may. does NATO feel that sanctions should be
taken against anyone after a comprehensive review of who turns out to be
chiefly responsible for mistakenly hitting the Chinese embassy, anyone in
the intelligence-gathering process?


Secondly, is that building of the Yugoslavian weapons agency that you tried
to hit on Friday night still on your target list.


JAMIE SHEA:
OK, you asked me so I'll answer but General Jertz may have something to add
on this question.


First of all - I was asked this yesterday, Stephen - what counts in these
situations is to find out why it happened and put it right. It involves
the intelligence community as a whole, I don't believe that any particular
individuals can be held accountable for this type of thing, it is a mistake
of a system not a mistake of an individual and the most important thing
therefore - and this is being done - is to correct the system as such and
ensure it doesn't happen again and as I have said, that is what SACEUR has
been doing and that will be done successfully.


The second question: as you know, any facility which in the eyes of the
military commanders is being used to supply, support, direct, sustain the
Yugoslav war machine in Kosovo has not been a sanctuary, is not a sanctuary
nor will be a sanctuary in the future.


General Jertz has nothing to add neither have I, so we will see you
tomorrow morning. Thank you very much.