NATO Speech: 15 May 1999 - Daniel / Jertz

PETER DANIEL:
Good Afternoon. Let me start with a brief word about the NATO attack on
the military camp and command post just outside the village of Korisa.
First, let me remind you that this area of south-western Kosovo has been
subject to steady Serb military activity since March of this year. There
was heavy Serb activity in the area during the specific time around the
attack as well.


I leave the specific details of the strike to General Jertz, but let me
just make a few points. I know there is a great deal of speculation about
how many, and why, Kosovar Albanians were at that location at the time of
the attack. We understand why you have those questions, but we can only
tell you what we know to be true. Just as we are aware of Serb claims
regarding casualties, we are aware of continued reports that the Milosevic
regime uses human shields. We are not there on the ground, and you are not
there on the ground. Serb media has a history of misrepresentation, to say
the least. So while we cannot vouch for the completeness, nor the
credibility of the television footage that has been broadcast, NATO deeply
regrets any accidental civilian casualties that may have resulted from this
attack.


>From this podium we have, can and will only tell you what we know, and what
we know is this. We identified a military camp and command post at this
site. It was planned as a target. The pilot confirmed that it was a valid
military target immediately before executing the strike. We struck the
site we targeted.


Now I will let General Jertz carry on with his military briefing, including
more details about this incident.


GENERAL JERTZ:
Good afternoon, Ladies and Gentlemen.


I would like to begin today by reiterating the NATO statement from earlier
this morning concerning the reports about the incident close to Korisa.
Following Serb claims about a NATO attack near Korisa, we have conducted an
extensive review of NATO operations in that area. Here is what I can tell
you so far.


First of all, as already has been mentioned, it was a legitimate military
target. NATO reconnaissance and intelligence orders identified just
outside Korisa a military camp and command post, including an armoured
personnel carrier and 10 pieces of artillery. Follow-up intelligence
confirmed this information as being a valid military target. Immediately
prior to the attack at 23.30 - 11.30 pm - local time Thursday night an
airborne forward air controller confirmed the target, so the identification
and attack system of his aircraft, having positively identified the target
as what looked like dug in military reveted positions, he dropped two laser
guided bombs. Following his attack, he cleared his wingman to also attack
the same target using two more laser guided bombs. Approximately 10
minutes later, the third aircraft engaged the target with gravity bombs,
with six gravity bombs. A total of 10 bombs were dropped on the target.


Contrary to Serbian reports, I want to be very clear that cluster munitions
were not used against these targets. We have no way of confirming the
casualty information being reported by the Serbian authorities, thus I can
add nothing to what has already been said.


There are two other items I would like to clarify before I give you the
operational up-date of today. First, concerning the use of cluster
munitions which was debated and discussed yesterday, NATO operational
planners choose the best weapon based on the target to be attacked.
Cluster bombs are valid munitions which are very effective against forces
on the ground. Sometimes, cluster munitions are not appropriate and so we
use other munitions. As with all weapons we employ, we take every
precaution to avoid unintended damage when we use cluster munitions at all.
In fact, as we have seen throughout the air operation, we prefer precision
guided munitions any time we can use them. This is in keeping with our aim
to avoid collateral damage as much as possible.


I also told you yesterday that NATO aircraft have used 30mm depleted
uranium ammunition. As you know, the United States has addressed this
issue before, particularly in the Pentagon briefing on 3 May in which it
was confirmed the use of these shells.


Turning now to our air operations in the last 24 hours. Once again, we
have seen no indications that Serbian ground forces in Kosovo are ceasing
operations or maybe even withdrawing. They continue operations, moving
forces tactically within Kosovo. In general, we have seen a reduction in
ground combat activity between the Serbian ground forces and the UCK over
the past 24 hours. Most activity however is still on-going in the western
part of Kosovo.


Our air operations continued apace with almost 600 missions flown in the
last 24 hours, which is less than it was 24 hours ago. Within Kosovo we
attacked more tanks, armoured personnel carriers, reveted artillery, fuel
trucks, a bridge-making vehicle and assembly areas as shown here. These
attacks continue to degrade and disrupt the Serbian ground forces in
Kosovo. We are keeping the unrelenting pressure on these forces for
obvious reasons.


This first post-strike image I have to show you illustrates the
effectiveness of our attacks against the bases of Serbian ground forces.
This was by the way the support base at Krivovo. Our strategic targets
included strikes against command and control facilities at Novi Sad,
Kosjeric and Novi Pazar, hits on integrated air defence sites, including
radars near Belgrade and Pirot, petroleum facilities near Sjenica and
Kraljevo, lines of communication near Verbas, Kosmaca and Orlate, and other
targets as shown on the slide.


Speaking of lines of communications and the vital resupply routes for the
Serbian ground forces, this image shows the damage to the Popovac bridge
north of Kosovo.


Air defence activity was similar to what we have seen over the past few
days. There were seven surface to air missiles fired along with
anti-aircraft artillery. All of our aircraft returned safely to their bases.


There are approximately 10, maybe even more humanitarian convoys going into
Kosovo and into Yugoslavia today. Again, as I said yesterday, we are
taking every precaution to ensure these convoys pass safely through Kosovo
and Yugoslavia. Still it is a challenge to deconflict between these
convoys and our essential combat air operations.


The humanitarian aid flights continue. Over the past 24 hours another 14
aid flights arrived in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, and 13
flights arrived in Albania. And here is a summary of key deliveries thus
far. These efforts, along with the outstanding work of our NATO personnel
in theatre, have made tremendous strides in providing safe refuge for those
innocent victims of Serbian brutality.


Thank you very much Ladies and Gentlemen.


Jake Lynch:
We had a report from our military analyst, Paul Beaver, citing a military
source that the building involved in this attack was in former times a
tractor factory. Now can you confirm first of all that tractors were on
the ground near it when the attack took place and that this was interpreted
by the pilots not as a warning signal that civilians may be nearby, but in
fact a sign therefore that they were in the right place? And secondly, why
have you not produced cockpit video of the incident at this briefing this
afternoon?


GENERAL JERTZ:
What I can say so far is when the pilot attacked the target he had to
visually identify it through the tech systems which are in the aircraft,
and you know it was by night, so he did see silhouettes of vehicles on the
ground and as it was by prior intelligence a valid target, he did do the
attack. The cockpit video you know it takes a little while to really have
it here because we would have to get it and I cannot promise that we will
get it in time, but I know the OD Washington is working on it and so far
you just have to wait. But there was no time to really send it up here.


SKY NEWS:
The only inhibiting factor as to the reason why we haven't seen it this
afternoon is the time it physically takes to get it here, and this is an
attack that took place at 11.30 the night before last?


GENERAL JERTZ:
Once again, we are working the issue to have the video here, if we can show
it to you then by that time it will be shown to you, but once again the
nation who has to provide the video will come to us and then we will be
ready to do it. But we did not have the time to do it yet.


PETER DANIEL:
If I can just refer you, at 5.00 Brussels time there will be a briefing at
the Pentagon and it may be a part of that briefing if it is available and
possible to release it.


AUGUSTINe Palokaj, Koha Ditore:
You mentioned that 10 humanitarian convoys are going today to Kosovo, are
you aware about the way of distribution, who will receive it and will the
displaced persons be able to receive the humanitarian aid?


GENERAL JERTZ:
Well you know the humanitarian convoys, under the lead of the UNHCR or any
other NGOs, non-governmental officials who do try to aid those innocent
people, you know we took all the precautions which we could do to make sure
that they have a safe passage, but the areas they are going to, that is up
to them and it is not under military command.


PETER DANIEL:
I might just add to that that these humanitarian organisations of course
give us their routes and where they are intending to stop, and where they
are going, in other words where they are going to be the whole time that
they are within the territory of the conflict area, and that gives us some
indication of the breadth of where they are going to stop and what people
might be in what given area. But as I have said again this morning and
this afternoon, we are not on the ground, you are not on the ground and we
can only go by the indications that we have and try to piece it together,
and the information that we are given is that there is no discrimination
with respect to the distribution of humanitarian aid, that it will go to
all the people that are in either the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, that
is in Serbia, or in Kosovo.


Xavier Vidal-Folch, El Pais : Two questions. General, why did the pilots
not realise there were civilians in Korisa? Was it because it was night?
Why do you bomb at night without sufficient guarantees that you won't
provoke collateral damage? And secondly, could you confirm what was the
altitude of the planes at the moment of the bombing?


GENERAL JERTZ:
First of all, for the first question, as I already said in my briefing it
was a legitimate target. Since late April we knew there were command
posts, military pieces, in that area and they have been continuously used.
So for the pilot flying the attack, it was a legitimate target. But when
he was in the target area for attacking it is his responsibility to make
sure that all the … he sees are the ones which he needs to really attack.
And at night he saw the silhouettes of vehicles and that is why he was
allowed to attack. Of course, and we have to be very fair, we are talking
at night. If there is anybody sleeping somewhere in a house, you would not
be able to see it from the perspective of a pilot. But once again, don't
misinterpret it, it was a military target which had been used since the
beginning of the conflict over there and we have all sources used to
identify the target in order to make sure that this target was still a
valid target when it was attacked.


PETER DANIEL:
May I just add to that? If there are civilians in a target that has been
clearly identified as a military target, it certainly wasn't NATO that
brought them there. We know who brought them there. If there were
civilians in this particular location identified as a military target, they
were brought there by someone. And why aren't those people sleeping in
their homes, where they should be, where we would never harm them because
we would know that was where they were and that those were their homes?


MARK LAITY, BBC:
Given that the attack was on a military target, have you had any
indications about any battle damage assessment? Are you aware of whether
you accurately hit the target, whether there was any Serb vehicle
casualties which you can usually make some kind of assessment of? And just
taking up the point you have made about what is called human shield, how
much are you getting in the way of indications of the Serbs deliberately
trying to use human shields, are these reports accurate, are there many of
them?


GENERAL JERTZ:
Let me say for the beginning that we had in the past weeks, looking at the
target, we had no evidence that there were civilians present, no indication
whatsoever. And as it was a military target, as it was used as a command
post, and we saw one piece of artillery and the 10 pieces he was talking
about, for sure it was for us a military target.


MARK LAITY:
I am not arguing, I am asking about post-strike, not pre-strike, what
indications you had of BDA? Did you hit the target?


GENERAL JERTZ:
We hit the target which was supposed to be hit, that was the target the
pilot was given and it was revetments, that is what he saw on his attack
aircraft, on the attack screen, when he was attacking it. The battle
damage, then we would have been on the ground there and see what really
has been done. At the moment we are over-flying the area again to find out
what the battle damage looks like now.


MARK LAITY:
Yes, but you do use video imagery as part of your BDA assessment and these
were laser-guided bombs. I am not trying to catch you out, I am just
asking have you had any indications that you hit military vehicles, because
the film from the ground, which we know could have been manipulated,
doesn't show any. So have you had any indications of things on the ground
which were destroyed?


GENERAL JERTZ:
Let me reiterate. The targets which had been attacked by the pilots were
the revetments and that was what he saw when the bombs did go down. Other
than that, the battle damage is still on-going, we had nothing about
tractors, we saw it on TV like you did.


QUESTIONS:
Dominique Thierry, Radio France
Hier pour la premiere fois a cette tribune on nous a precise qu'il y avait
deux exemples le 13 mai d'utilisation de civiles comme boucliers humains
sur deux ponts dans la vallee proche de Pristina. Depuis hier vous nous
laissez entendre et vous le precisez encore aujourd'hui qu'il y a pu avoir
des boucliers humains autour de cette cible. Est-ce que c'est
effectivement ce que vous nous laissez entendre et en quoi et pourquoi
est-ce contradictoire avec ce que vient de dire le General Jertz qui dit
qu'il n'y a pas d'indications de boucliers humains.


PETER DANIEL:
On ne peut pas confirmer qu'il y a des boucliers humains et je l'ai bien
dit ce matin aussi. Nous avons beaucoup d'indications et il y a eu des
reportages differents dont Jamie Shea a fait part hier dans son briefing de
l'apres-midi mais le fait est que comme je viens de dire ces gens etaient
sur un site que nous avons bien identifie comme un site et une cible
militaire qui a ete vise et d'apres ce que nous avons vu a la television il
y avait des civiles. Je ne peux pas dire plus que ca. Nous ne sommes pas
la, vous n'etes pas la, seulement les serbes sont sur place et il faut se
fier a leurs compte-rendus


QUESTIONS:
Vous n'etiez pas la-bas, les serbes ont ete la-bas, mais il y avait aussi
des albanais la-bas. Je veux vous dire aujourd'hui et ca a ete transmis
par les services albanais de la Deutsche Welle le recit d'un des survivants
de ce drame de Koris. Il a declare a la radio de la Deutsche Welle que les
civiles albanais sont rassembles dans ce village et tenu par la force par
l'armee serbe. Comment vous pouvez commenter ce recit, ce temoignage de
cette personne, de cette albanais qui a survecu ce drame.


PETER DANIEL
Oui, c'est justement ce que je viens de vous dire. Nous avons des
rapports, des indications, des compte-rendus des gens dans les camps de
refugies et a d'autres endroits de differentes choses qui se sont passees.
Mais j'ai clairement dit au debut cet apres-midi que si nous ne le savons
pas par nos propres moyens, je ne peux pas vous confirmer cela.


Douglas Hamilton, Reuters :
There are a couple of questions that I would like to put on behalf of
Reuters colleagues in northern Albania who can't put them. They have seen
all this bombing going on across the border, very close to the border, near
the Morina checkpoint and they are wondering what NATO is doing there. Is
there a specific purpose? Are you softening up that area in order to do
something there such as to fly in Apaches? Second question from them, does
NATO have any intelligence to offer the aid agencies about how many
refugees are waiting on that side of the border? Apparently the UN is
saying NATO isn't telling us what they see in terms of queues of refugees
just across the border into Kosovo?


GENERAL JERTZ:
You know that there is heavy fighting, we have to admit that, there was and
there is heavy fighting on the ground in this area between what we found
out the UCK and Serb forces, but it is very difficult of course to really
say exact numbers and how many military assets have been involved in that.
So we really look into it, but having identified military VJ targets over
there, that is of course also the emphasis that we are doing attacking
those areas.


And the other question, we are very sure that there are no refugees waiting
to come into FYROM and/or Albania at the present time. All the indications
we have are that they are more or less either forced or one has put some
force on them to have them stay at home, or at least have them go back
again to where they came from. And as Peter already indicated, the reason
would be and is very obvious.


PETER DANIEL:
I can only say this: there is good cooperation between the agencies and
NATO, there is good cooperation and I think you can witness on the ground
in both the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and in Albania, and that
cooperation also extends to trying to help in any way to relieve the
suffering. You have to understand, and I think you are aware, that the
refugees move around, the pattern isn't static, it changes from day to day
and there are some people who are plainly hidden. Hidden means you want to
hide from everything, including anyone that might be able to see you and
they may be deeply hidden in the forests, but there is a lot of movement,
people are moving from one area to another and moving around in groups and
it is very difficult to draw a map and say here is where they all are on a
given day, because things do change from day to day.


Jean-Marc Illouz, France 2:
General Jertz, three points. First of all, did I understand correctly that
you said a third plane used gravity bombs about 20 minutes after the first
strike? Second question: was the artillery located on that command post,
had it been active in the previous days? And the third question is on
validation, how does a pilot validate visually a target at night? And
Peter, if you could then perhaps pick that one up in French I would like that.


GENERAL JERTZ:
Yes, I said there was a third aircraft called in because as the first
aircraft, what we call forward air controller aircraft, had identified the
revetments and the silhouettes I already mentioned, and the third aircraft
was called in to also hit the target, but the information I have is that it
was about 10 minutes, not 20 minutes.


Same questioner:
… was a gravity bomb?


GENERAL JERTZ:
There were two aircraft with two laser guided bombs each, and then 10
minutes later a third aircraft came in with six bombs, gravity bombs
hitting the target which was already indicated by the first two aircraft
with six bombs.


On the validation question, once again I really have to elaborate and
reiterate again, it was a validated military target because we did have all
the information since the beginning of the conflict that there was a
command post and it was used as military target. And from a pilot's
perspective, you can imagine flying at night at medium altitude, of course
you have to be very concentrated on the attack itself and by using the
attack systems and validation systems in the aircraft, which he did, he did
see silhouettes on the ground.


Same Questioner: Are they night vision enhancers?


GENERAL JERTZ:
They are night vision enhancers and he has a good view on what is going on
on the ground.


Same Questioner: And that means visual recognition using night enhancers?


GENERAL JERTZ:
Visual recognition via technical means, which are in the cockpit.


PETER DANIEL:
You asked me to pick that one up, I will be glad to do it after. Oui, je
pourrais le faire plus tard.


CNN: Deaths of civilians by NATO attacks gone wrong is not new, it has been
a recurring theme in this campaign. Could you name one safeguard, one
procedure you have put into place to lessen the chances of this happening?


GENERAL JERTZ:
Death of civilians at the beginning have been caused by Milosevic.


CNN: I am talking about in this campaign the NATO-related deaths?


GENERAL JERTZ:
Also the NATO-related campaign had been started by Milosevic, and of course
it is bitter to have deaths of civilians during a conflict and we do all
our best to avoid collateral damage and that is why I have said we are
using very often and mostly precision-guided munitions to keep collateral
damage as low as possible.


CNN:
Have you been doing that throughout?


GENERAL JERTZ:
No, I just told you that we were also using other kinds of munitions. But
still what we are doing throughout is to do our best to avoid collateral
damage.


PETER DANIEL:
I think what you are really asking is a policy question and it has to be
answered from a policy perspective, and that is how are we conducting this
campaign? We are trying to the utmost degree possible, first of all to
properly identify and target only military or military-related targets;
and secondly, to revalidate those targets, as we have explained to you
today, to the extent possible. And we have told you time and time again
that when they can't be properly validated, there is a very simple
procedure, it is called abort, away we go, home and we haven't done
anything. And that has happened on many occasions, we have put it here in
the briefing on many, many days where people have gone in, we knew where
the target was, but if we couldn't be absolutely sure, we aborted, and that
is basically the answer to your question, that there is a policy that is
set down and that is the way we operate.


CNN :
With respect Sir, that wasn't the question. The question was since these
incidents have you put in place, can you name for me one procedure that you
have put in place to lessen them happening? That is a very simple
question, Sir.


PETER DANIEL:
Here I have to turn for a bit to General Jertz, but I can pick that one up
too.


GENERAL JERTZ:
We do have procedures, as I already said, we do go through all the
intelligence sources which we have to make sure that these are valid
targets, and only if they are valid military targets we do have them on the
list. And once again, when we have good weather we make sure that we
identify the target visually. When the weather is not as good or when it
is at night we take other devices like I already explained, attack devices
and devices which are in the aircraft, enlarging the area where the target
is being situated and those are the plans and we continuously do the
validation of targets and make sure that they are only military targets.
And as Peter already indicated, I think we have shown you on several
occasions that while we were attacking targets and the pilot could not
identify the target as a military target, or he saw something which he did
not expect, he turned away the guidance and the bomb did go somewhere else.
What else can we do? The only other reason would be to not begin a war
like that, but talk to Milosevic, he did it.


PIERRE JULIEN, RTL:
Je voudrais revenir a la question de mon confrere de France Inter.
Avez-vous vraiment eu des exemples de multiplications, sans parler donc du
cas precis de Korisa, mais avez-vous eu des exemples de multiplications de
boucliers humains. Et ma deuxieme question est, peut-on connaitre le type,
ou tout au moins la nationalite, aussi des appareils qui ont participes aux
raids.


GENERAL JERTZ:
You know that we are not talking specific countries when we are talking
what kind of aircraft had attacked, but I have indicated to you that it was
F-16, so it is up to you to find out which country it was, and it is always
up to the country to announce, if they want to announce it, if it was
theirs or not. And please be fair, let's stick to that policy.


PETER DANIEL:
Je crois sur la question des boucliers humains, j'ai repondu a deux
reprises. Ce matin aussi, et je vous ai bien dit que c'etaient des
indications des rapports des temoignages que nous avons recus mais nous
n'avons pas de l'information que nous possedons directement qui nous
permettra de le confirmer. C'est pour ca que je vous dis, que je vous
refere a la situation dont on a temoignage mais pas plus. Si le jour on
peut le confirmer, a ce moment-la, ce sera presente comme une confirmation.


GENERAL JERTZ:
May I add to that? In 1995 there were 375 United Nations Protection Forces
attached to munition support areas, to bridges, so that they should not be
attacked, and that was Karadzic, including Milosevic, doing that and he
continuously does it.


Abi Wright, ABC:
Peter, you and the general have said repeatedly that this was a military
target, that you had seen military activity there since the end of April.
Why then did it take weeks later for this target to actually be bombed, why
wasn't it bombed sooner if you have so positively and definitely identified
it as an area of military activity?


GENERAL JERTZ:
Thank you very much for the question, I think it is an easy question.
There are so many legitimate targets and of course when I indicated to you
that we are using precision-guided munitions and not using weapons which
are as brutal as Milosevic is using in other areas, it takes much longer
because if you have one or two precision-guided munitions per aircraft then
of course you have to go over and over again and go to the military targets
which have been detected. On the other hand, whenever the tactical leader
tells us that this target should now be attacked because the value of the
military target has increased, then it is his right and his freedom to
attack this target as long as it is detected as a legitimate military target.


Abi Wright, ABC:
Do you mean by that then that there were more tanks sited in that site,
that something new had developed there to make it more valuable as a target
now as opposed to earlier?


GENERAL JERTZ:
There was more fighting on the ground by that time and that is why the
tactical leader, and I wouldn't like to go into more details on that, the
tactical leader at the site running the campaign down there, he decided
that this target should be attacked on that night, and that is all I can say.


PETER DANIEL:
I would just remind you that this particular target is in the Prizren area
and if you have seen the map for the last few days you have noticed that
there is a lot of activity on our part and that is not just coincidence.
It's because there is a lot of serb military activity in this particular
region. You have seen reports, and again I say reports, that were
mentioned from this podium a week or so ago about Kosovar Albanians being
conscripted to dig revetments and defences around Prizren and I mean this
is an area where there are a lot of Serb military forces and a lot of
military installations, and this particular village is only about 5km as I
understand it from the centre of Prizren and that whole area around there
is an area of quite high activity.


QUESTION:
Puisque vous parlez des boucliers humains, vous croyez que c'etait par
hasard qu'ils etaient la. Parce que d'habitude on les melange avec des
tanks, ou est-ce qu'ils savaient qu'ils pouvaient etre attacques ce soir.
Et encore je voudrais savoir puisque vous avez dit qu'ils bougent souvent
leurs postes de commandement - vous expliquez ca depuis plusieurs jours -
est-ce qu'il etait possible que vos renseignements etaient perimes. Si
c'etait des renseignements qui venaient du mois d'avril.


PETER DANIEL:
La reponse a la premiere partie de votre question, si je l'ai bien
comprise, c'etait pourquoi ces civiles etaient la. D'apres les indications
encore et des temoignages, des gens que nous avons vu dans les journaux et
sur les fils, c'est que ces gens la passaient que la nuit dans ce village
et ils etaient auparavent dans les collines, dans la campagne, oł ils se
cachaient ou se refugiaient et ils etaient amenes a cette localite, encore
apres les temoignages, par des policiers serbes. C'est tout ce que nous
savons. Mais c'etait comme on vous l'a dit, identifie a maintes reprises
comme etant une installation militaire avec de l'equipement militaire et du
personnel militaire sur place et le reste je crois que nous l'avons repete
comment nous avons conduit l'attaque il y a 36 heures.


GENERAL JERTZ:
Of course our intelligence is not out-dated, we do up-date our military
intelligence continuously and I think we come back to the same question
again, it was a military legitimate target and the information we had was
it had to be attacked because it was a valid target.