NATO Speech: Shea & Jertz - 17 May 99

JAMIE SHEA:
Ladies and Gentlemen, Good Afternoon. Welcome to NATO, welcome to our
daily 3.00 pm briefing. General Jertz, as always ever present by my side
to give you the military operational up-date in just a few moments.


I would just like to start off by informing you that Ibrahim Rugova will be
at NATO to meet with the Secretary General at 9.00 tomorrow morning.


Today, when the NATO Ambassadors held their meeting, they were very
concerned about the humanitarian situation in Kosovo of course. We are
concerned also by reports that yesterday 150 Kosovar Albanian refugee men
were turned back at the border while trying to cross into Albania, and at
other stories of young men being taken off refugee buses en route to the
Albanian border.


Today also we have had the disturbing news that a train carrying upwards of
2,000 refugees towards the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia has been
turned back as well. Given the very difficult circumstances in Kosovo at
the moment, the last thing we want to see is refugees being turned on and
off like a tap. It is very important that those who wish to leave, to be
secure in the neighbouring countries, to be looked after in refugee camps,
should be able to go, and being turned back at the border after many of
them have been attempting for days and weeks in difficult circumstances to
leave, is obviously a very cruel blow.


At the same time, in Albania the situation for refugees is stable, no major
health problems have been reported, although the summer of course is now on
its way. AFOR troops are focusing very much on the provision of adequate
clean water supplies for the summer period when consumption of course will
need to be higher, and again helping the relief organisations to evacuate
refugees from the town of Kukes, yesterday 2,500 were evacuated.


Another camp, Camp Hope this time, is now operational in the Former
Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. Despite this disturbing incident with the
train, yesterday over 1,000 refugees arrived, but we have indications from
those refugees that up to 40,000 more may be making their way southwards
towards the border and attempting to cross.


Today in Belgrade the UN humanitarian mission, with 9 UN agencies
represented, gets under way. As you know, this is being headed up by the
Under Secretary General for Humanitarian Affairs, Mr Viera De Melo, and his
team is due to go to Kosovo next week for two and a half days. NATO is
obviously counting on Belgrade to keep its undertaking to Under Secretary
General Viera de Melo to allow his team to go wherever they want to in
Kosovo, to see whatever they want to and need to, and to be able to
establish a balanced, fair and full report.


At the same time, we are very encouraged, and this was made clear by the
NATO Ambassadors this morning, by the increasing number of humanitarian
convoy missions into Yugoslavia, and of course including Kosovo, 16 alone
yesterday, and 13 today, with another 12 planned for tomorrow. But again I
stress that it is very important that these humanitarian convoys be allowed
to distribute the food and medical supplies to all, all, the peoples of
Yugoslavia, particularly those clearly who are the most in need - the
Kosovars, the internally displaced Kosovars that remain inside Kosovo - and
again I reiterate that NATO will provide every support and help we can to
those humanitarian convoys, but it is very important also that they notify
us of their route maps, the times of departure and so on, so that we are
aware of their activities.


Yesterday I noticed that President Milosevic took time out from his hectic
schedule to present some decorations and to award promotions to 15 Serb
policemen from the Interior Ministry, the MUP Interior Ministry Forces,
from the Prizren district. And the citation that was made said that over
the last year these 15 policemen, and the MUP in general, had achieved two
significant results: the first was the defeat of the Kosovo Liberation
Army which, I quote from the citation, "no longer exists as either a
formation or an organisation"; and the second citation was for the valiant
efforts made by the MUP in ensuring the protection "of the personal
security and the security of the property of the citizens of Kosovo". If
those are the two standards by which policemen are decorated and promoted
in Yugoslavia today then indeed there should have been a Court Martial
ceremony yesterday, not a promotion ceremony.


First of all, when it comes to the Kosovo Liberation Army, I always recall
those words of Mark Twain that you are all familiar with - "Reports of my
death have been greatly exaggerated." And indeed yesterday we here in the
Alliance noticed renewed fighting between MUP forces and elements of the
Kosovo Liberation Army, first of all along the Pec/Pristina line of
communication, and then elsewhere between Kormorani and Kijevo, where
indeed far from defeating the Kosovo Liberation Army, the MUP forces are
forced to use mortars and self-propelled anti-aircraft guns against their
opponents.


But more importantly, I was disturbed by the claim that the MUP have
protected the citizens of Prizren, because indeed it is a sorry state of
affairs when the police in a society are not there to protect human rights,
but to commit human rights abuses, and Prizren, the city where these 15
policemen are stationed, is one which has probably suffered the most over
the last months in the whole of Kosovo. The first report we had of
atrocities in Prizren was on 20 March, before the NATO campaign began, when
30 Kosovar Albanians were executed, the ethnic cleansing began in earnest
on 2 April when the Kosovar inhabitants were given two hours notice to
leave and robbed of their identity documents. The Serb forces surrounded
Prizren on 2 May and then stepped up the campaign of forced evacuations.
And just a couple of weeks ago we also heard many refugees say that men had
been conscripted in Prizren and forced to undertake forced labour, notably
digging of military trenches and the construction of revetments along the
Prizren/Azure route. And lately we have been disturbed at the fact that
shops in Prizren have signs up saying "No bread for Albanians", and that
the price of staple foods in that part of Kosovo has gone up by about 500%
over the last month. So again I fail to see how the police have done a
good job of protecting either the lives or the property of the citizens of
that town.


Indeed Kosovo today is the place where innocent citizens run away from the
police and do not seek their protection. Indeed we have been tracking over
the last few days here two large concentrations of internally displaced
persons in the general area of Junic, and since 12 May we have been
tracking up to 70,000 internally displaced persons west of Orasevac, trying
to head towards the Albanian border. Refugee reports also tell us that
40,000 internally displaced persons are currently blocked by MUP forces
from moving out of the region between Orasevac and Glinali. And Serb
forces have been periodically now for some months firing mortars into the
village of Nekovica which is 10 km south of Glogavac, so indeed the sorry
state of affairs continues.


Indeed over the last few days we have also heard of three new stories of
Kosovar Albanians being used as human shields. The first one is from the
middle of April in the town of Presovo in which 500 young Albanians were
pressed into military service, forced to wear the uniform of the Yugoslav
Army and told that they would be used as human shields "as soon as a NATO
troops offensive began". We have also a report from the town of Sures
where over 10,000 people at the end of March were taken away and forced to
serve as human shields in the ammunition factory at Sebrica. And the final
report that has come to us in recent days comes from Doganovic where on 6
April the Serb police rounded up 4,000 people and forced them to be human
shields in a quarry.


And indeed tracking the story of these atrocities over the last few weeks,
we now have over 40 separate incidents that have come to our notice which
concern either the deliberate destruction of villages, the shelling of
large concentrations of internally displaced persons, family separations,
particularly men of military age which in Yugoslavia is classified as
anything between 18 - 65, and summary executions.


But if the Yugoslav police, despite their decorations at Prizren, will not
protect the people of Kosovo then NATO will. I just want to say that every
atrocity story represents the equivalent of a megawatt of added energy and
determination to NATO's effort to stop this human tragedy going on.


Alai Riesel, the winner of the Nobel Peace Prize in 1986, once said:
"What hurts the victims most is not the cruelty of the oppressor, but the
silence of the bystander". Well NATO is not going to be a silent
bystander, we are going to be a vocal actor and we are going to ensure, as
soon as we can, that all of these suffering people are allowed to go back
to their homes.


Thank you and now I will ask General Jertz to give you his daily
operational up-date.


GENERAL JERTZ:
Thank you very much, Jamie. Good Afternoon Ladies and Gentlemen.


Overall about 350 total missions were flown in the past 24 hours. Despite
generally bad weather, we struck ground forces in the morning in south-west
Kosovo. These targets included vehicles and artillery. We did hit targets
elsewhere in Serbia. Among these targets we once again struck the airfield
at Cenica. You may wonder why we continue to hit the airfields. The
answer is mainly battle damage repair. The Serb Air Force works very hard
to get their bases back into operation each time we shut them down. Our
continued strikes keep the Serbs off balance and their bases out of action.
This helps our pilots maintain air superiority and, which is of even more
importance, prevents the Serbs using aircraft freely to support their
ethnic cleansing operations in Kosovo.


On the ground we still see no indications that Serb ground forces, or
special police units, or paramilitary forces, are withdrawing from Kosovo.
Their operations continue.


A summary of ground activity within Kosovo is shown on this slide. We see
some limited action in central Kosovo, but the majority of operations
continue in the western and south western sectors. Artillery, mortars and
other weapons are being used in these areas.


You should all please keep in mind that as these heavy weapons are used in
continuing ground combat, there are large groups of internally displaced
people across Kosovo trying to find safe shelter. Most of these people are
living in the open or in crude shelters with little or no protection. We
don't know exactly where all of these people are, but we know there are
concentrations in the area shown on this slide and we believe there is a
deliberate strategy on the part of Belgrade to use these IDPs to complicate
NATO targeting.


The efforts to help these people continue in many ways. We continue the
air operations to force President Milosevic to stop his policies of ethnic
cleansing and let these people return to their homes. Additionally, as I
have briefed you over the past few days, there are increasing numbers of
humanitarian convoys now operating within Yugoslavia. We applaud the
admirable efforts and recognise the dedication and bravery of those
involved and we also hope that this effort does help the people suffering
within Kosovo. We continue to do our very best to ensure the safety of
these convoys, but as I have said before, this is a continuous challenge
and we need the absolute cooperation of those non-governmental
organisations in compliance with set-up procedures.


The other humanitarian aid efforts also did continue with 13 flights each
to Albania and the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia over the past 24
hours.


Finally, once again I can report, and I am pleased to report, that all NATO
aircraft returned safely to their bases. However we did lose one unmanned
reconnaissance drone.


Thank you, Ladies and Gentlemen, that concludes my briefing.


AUGUSTIN PALOKAJ:
The British Minister of Foreign Affairs, Robin Cook, let us know that
invasion is not excluded. Does that still remain our opinion that we will
not have an invasion against organised resistance. But he said also that
the Serbian troops are less and less able to have organised resistance.
What does it mean?


JAMIE SHEA:
As you know, I was here listening to the Secretary of State this morning
and I think what he said was crystal clear, which is to say that we will
deploy an international security force, it is not an invasion that he was
talking about, it was the deployment of an international security force
when we judge that the circumstances are right, and he made it clear that
President Milosevic has no veto on that decision, which will be taken by
the NATO Council and the international community in general given that we
obviously want to have the participation of a large number of other
countries in this force, but when the time is right.


Certainly he also made clear that for the time being the air campaign has a
very important role to play in continuing to degrade and to harass those
Serb forces that remain until such time as they leave and that we are
certain that they are leaving. So that is what I think he was saying and
that is totally in line with NATO policy.


QUESTION:
In The Hague last week the NATO governments have argued that the
International Court of Justice does not have jurisdiction. I want to know
if NATO is afraid of being judged by the International Court of Justice,
and also what will happen if NATO is brought before the International
Criminal Tribunal, will they also argue that there is no jurisdiction? Is
NATO not prepared to recognise the authority of the International Court of
Justice?


JAMIE SHEA:
As you know, without NATO countries there would be no International Court
of Justice, nor would there be any International Criminal Tribunal for the
former Yugoslavia because NATO countries are in the forefront of those who
have established these two tribunals, who fund these tribunals and who
support on a daily basis their activities. We are the upholders, not the
violators, of international law.


QUESTION:
Shouldn't you recognise the jurisdiction then?


JAMIE SHEA:
We obviously recognise the jurisdiction of these tribunals, but I can
assure you, when these tribunals look at Yugoslavia I think they will find
themselves fully occupied with the far more obvious breaches of
international law that have been committed by Belgrade than any
hypothetical breaches that may have occurred by the NATO countries, and I
expect that to apply to both. So that is our position on that, we
recognise international law, in fact we recognise international law so much
that when we see a massive violation of it, with thousands of people driven
from their homes, thousands of people killed, thousands of young men
unaccounted for, others being herded around like cattle within their own
country, we don't just shout about it, we do something to stop it because
we uphold international law.


QUESTION:
Well why don't you recognise the jurisdiction of the International Court of
Justice?


JAMIE SHEA:
I said we do recognise the jurisdiction.


QUESTION:
No, because you were only arguing that it … every NATO country was arguing
that there was no jurisdiction and you did not deal with the substantive
issue. If you believe that international law is so important, why would
you not allow the court to judge on these substantive issues.


JAMIE SHEA:
The charge by Yugoslavia was brought under the genocide convention. That
does not apply to NATO countries. As to whom it does apply, I think we
know the answer there.


QUESTION:
What can you tell us about the status of the Serbian POWs? We hear that
they may be released imminently.


JAMIE SHEA:
I have heard the same stories and I believe that something is happening
there, but the actual release is something that has to be decided by the US
government, these two POWs are in the custody of the US authorities, as you
know, and therefore the timing, the circumstances of the release is up to
the US government to announce.


QUESTION:
Could you just go over the numbers for those human shields again?


JAMIE SHEA:
Surely. First of all at Presovo 500 young Albanians, Sires 10,000, that is
in the ammunition factory, and Doganovic 4,000, that was in the quarry.
Those are the three latest incidents we have.


JOURNALIST ANSA:
Je voudrais revenir sur l'information des bombes non utilisees qui ont ete
larguees en Adriatique et cette information a cree beaucoup d'emotion en
Italie. Le gouvernement a indique ne pas avoir ete informe specifiquement
des cas de larguage alors est-ce que vous pouvez nous indiquer aujourd'hui
si le gouvernement italien a bien ete informe et d'autre part est-ce que
vous pouvez nous indiquer dans combien de cas ces bombes ont ete larguees
et combien de bombes se trouvent dans l'Adriatique?


JAMIE SHEA:
First let me say in reply to that that as you know there are a number of
predefined so-called ejection areas in the Adriatic, as General Jertz
informed you yesterday. And yesterday what we said to you was that the
sort of information on these various droppings of munitions have been given
certainly, as you would expect, to the flight crews that operate in the
area of the Balkans over Yugoslavia, to the control agencies, to the air
space controllers, to the airborne, ground and other military agencies who
need to know. Now based on the information that I have today, I understand
that this information was not given to the Italian government.
Subsequently, this information is being given to the Italian authorities
and the military commanders are making every effort to conduct a full
investigation every time there is an instance where these munitions have to
be, and I repeat, for safety reasons only, for safety reasons only,
jettisoned into these zones, and since of course the incident with the
three fishermen who were wounded, obviously all of the information is being
passed on to the Italian authorities, as you would expect. So we are
investigating every incident, informing the Italian government of every
incident and making sure that all of the details are passed on. So this
situation is now working I believe to the satisfaction of both sides and we
will continue to make every effort to make sure that the Italian government
has a full picture of what is happening.


CNN:
General, a military judgment if you would. Given where this crisis is at
now, and given all that would have to be done to return all of the refugees
to their homes, can that be done before winter sets in?


GENERAL JERTZ:
Well you know the air campaign is going along in a strategic way, a
tactical way, and we do our best to end this conflict as soon as possible.
And we as the military, yes I do hope that we can make sure that those
people will be home by winter time, and we do our best.


CNN:
I am not talking about home, I am talking about a practical assessment.
Can it happen, because we have had conflicting information from people
within NATO, as to whether it can or cannot be done, return all of them and
have them living there in some sort of reasonable dwellings to protect them
during winter, can that be done before winter sets in?


GENERAL JERTZ:
Of course you know we would go into speculations, I would go into
speculations and would say again the numbers of days or maybe weeks in
which we have to go on with the campaign. The way it looks like, and I
will up-date the numbers on Wednesday on the attrition on the Serb forces
on the ground, and by using those numbers you might be judging on how much
longer this campaign will have to go. But on the other side, even though I
am not a politician, I do hope that all the political efforts which are
being brought to your attention by Jamie, should also be finalising this
conflict.


JAMIE SHEA:
John, as you know, the refugees have a very high motivation to go home, in
fact we are having sometimes trouble moving them from some of the refugee
camps even for their own safety on the borders because they simply don't
want to put any further kilometres than necessary between themselves and
Kosovo so there is a high degree of motivation. We saw in the past in
October, when many of them were internally displaced, they went back very
quickly as soon as we had for a while a cease-fire and started to rebuild.
Obviously they are going to need help from the international community
particularly in terms of winterisation for their homes so that they can get
through the winter but as I say, they are motivated and they live in a
society with an enormous tradition of mutual help and assistance and so
yes, I would expect that once the circumstances are right you'll see them
returning very quickly indeed. The fact that most of them want to stay
in the area rather than be evacuated to other countries shows just how keen
they are to get home.


They will go back as soon as the air campaign has produced the results and
the international security presence is there but they won't go home before
the international security presence is there, that is clear, so the
international community will have to ensure that we deploy those troops
very quickly indeed to create that environment of safety but once that is
there I expect they will start going back in their thousands particularly
as they are very much in the region and therefore that transport could take
place quickly.


ANTONIO ESTEVES MARTINS, RTP:
A follow-up. Is it possible to consider that the refugees would go back
with a security force even when the bombing of Serbia and the north would
be going on and can you give us an update of what is going on with the G8,
is it possible to have in the next few days the document ready to go to the
Security Council?


JAMIE SHEA:
My understanding is that once we have succeeded in obliging the Serb forces
to leave Kosovo, the NATO air campaign will stop, that was made clear by
Heads of State and Government at the Washington summit. We don't have any
secret agenda, we don't have any hidden aims. Our aims are transparent
and clear and we are not going to change them as you know so we will not
obviously be continuing this operation once the Serb forces have left
Kosovo.


ANTONIO ESTEVES-MARTINS, RTP:
Sorry, Jamie, there is a point here that is rather important. If Milosevic
does not comply with the five conditions but still can clear the Serb
military forces from the Kosovo area, is it possible that the refugees can
go back with some forces that are more or less ready at the time?


JAMIE SHEA:
Antonio, the five conditions are all part of a package, they have all to be
accepted. It is not a question of pick and choose, you know: "I'll take
number 1, 3 and 5 but not 2 and 4!" No, all five have got to be accepted
but as I have always pointed out, there is an intrinsic link between them.
For example, the first is to stop the violence, the second is an
international security force, the third is the return of the refugees. If
the Serb forces leave, those other three conditions are automatically met
because withdrawal of the Serb forces means the international security
force can be deployed, that means that the refugees can go back and
obviously it means the violence has stopped and then Milosevic of course
will have to accept also to negotiate a political solution but the
withdrawal of the Serb forces is the key that unlocks the door to the
others and that is why we insist on it so much.


As for the G8, yes, I think are going along in this. As you know, Foreign
Minister Ivanov of Russia is with the EU this afternoon, I am expecting
they will make progress in talking about the shape of a UN Security Council
resolution, work on that is ongoing in New York and has been for some time
already, various ideas are circulating but obviously it is going to be much
easier to draft in detail if we have an understanding between the NATO
countries and Russia as to the way in which the core principles are going
to be implemented and there obviously some work still has to go on but as
you know, there will be a series of diplomatic meetings this week.


This is really the week of diplomacy, tomorrow with Mr. Chirnomyrdin,
President Ahtisaari, the Strobe Talbott meeting; today, Chancellor
Schroder has met President Ahtisaari already in Finland so I believe that
this week we are probably going to get somewhere down the road on this.


DOUGLAS HAMILTON, REUTERS:
One question for both, please, if I may. The British Foreign Secretary
suggested that NATO forces could go into Kosovo when the Yugoslav forces
were no longer capable of putting up organised resistance and he also said
that there was at least one instance of Yugoslav VJ forces - Army forces -
trying to leave the front line and being put back in the line by MUP
Special Interior Ministry Police. Is that solid information, is that sort
of thing happening or is it wishful thinking on NATO's part?


JAMIE SHEA:
Doug, General Jertz may have a comment on this so let me just tell you my
perspective. The first thing to say is that the timing of the deployment
of an international security force is in the hands of the North Atlantic
Council, they will decide when the time is right, they will know it when
they see it obviously but clearly the Serb forces have to be on their way
out of Kosovo in a total and irreversible movement.


The second thing is yes, I have said frequently over the last few days that
the VJ is involved less and less in the military activities going on on the
ground because of declining morale, because of problems with the call-up of
reservists - very few of them are obeying their call-up papers - and
because they have suffered very gravely at the hands of NATO and are
continuing to do so they are dispersing, trying to take shelter and as they
do that they are less and less able to function as a cohesive force, they
are reactive now more than active.


At the same time, a lot of the burden of dealing with the UCK - the Kosovo
Liberation Army - has fallen on the shoulders of the Interior Ministry
Special Police but there is a reason for that: they have been a sort of
journiste buree (phon) of the Yugoslav security forces in recent years,
their salaries have gone up whereas those of the Army have gone down
because they of course are not that betters actors in repression but they
of course are the basis of the regime, the internal security structure that
keeps Milosevic where Milosevic likes to be, on top and in charge and so
there has been that pattern, yes.


MAJOR GENERAL JERTZ:
I wanted to add that what we have seen in the last weeks since the conflict
is ongoing is always the same pattern: the heavy artillery, the heavy
forces, the VJ forces, the Serb forces surround villages, they start
shelling with artillery on the villages, then the Special Police just go in
to get ….. with the houses and then the paramilitaries finally end the
work. Unfortunately, when I say that it sounds like I am enjoying it but
no, they are doing the cruelties and the brutalities at the end.


DOUGLAS HAMILTON:
Excuse me, that is not the same as saying that the MUP is putting the VJ
soldiers back in the line at gunpoint which is what …..


MAJOR GENERAL JERTZ:
MUP wants to be protected by the VJ forces and that is why of course our
first targets are the VJ forces because they are the ones who have the
artillery and the heavy pieces and that is why they are our main and most
important interest.


JAMIE SHEA:
Doug, the MUP is the kind of Praetorian Guard of Milosevic's government.
As I said, they are the ones who get the training, the money, the budgets
and before the current sweep operation Horseshoe began back in the
beginning of March, we had signs that the VJ was transferring much of their
heavy artillery, their equipment and armoured vehicles to the MUP to ready
them. These people are not only better treated but they are more
ideologically motivated so it wouldn't surprise me at all if they were
trying to keep the less-motivated VJ units focused on the job but I think
they are going to find that increasingly difficult to do.


STEVE PEARLSTEIN (WASHINGTON POST):
I wonder if I could go back to some old business, the bombing at Korisa.
You asked us, Jamie, on a previous briefing, to have our colleagues go and
look around, talk to the people who were there and look for signs of the
military installation. My colleague there was able to confirm, as a
number of Western journalists did, that the Yugoslav authorities did in
fact direct the refugees to camp out for the night in the area in question.
What my colleague was unable to do and reading the clips I don't find any
other reporter able to do, is to confirm visually or from the testimony of
the people there that there were military installations, they didn't see
artillery, they did not see military moving around that night. Can you
help square that circle for us? Had they left a day before, are we not
looking for the right things, how can you explain that?


JAMIE SHEA:
Steve, I have two comments to make there. The first thing is, as you
know, these journalists who were taken there deliberately by Belgrade
arrived on the scene several hours - in fact the best part of a day - later
after the incident took place. That would have given naturally the
Jugoslav government plenty of time to present things its way.


Secondly, you have also seen the witness accounts of a large number of
Kosovar Albanians, refugees - one was featured on Deutsche Welle over the
weekend, others have been featured strongly in the Kosovar press - all
saying that that was a military command post, a military encampment and in
fact claiming that Kosovar Albanians were taken there specifically so I
stand by the affirmation of this Alliance that it was a valid and validated
military target.


FRENCH QUESTION:


Robin Cook ce matin nous a annonce que l'equivalent, disons, d'une brigade
motorisee yougoslave avait ete detruit au Kosovo. Est-ce que l'OTAN,
estimant que l'armee yougoslave au Kosovo ne represente plus une veritable
menace, peut eventuellement envoyer alors une force OTAN ou une force
internationale avec un noyau dur OTAN au Kosovo, escorter les refugies pour
qu'ils rentrent chez eux et ceci meme si Slobodan Milosevic n'a pas accepte
ou meme pas accepte totalement les cinq conditions posees par l'OTAN.
MAJOR GENERAL JERTZ:
I think we just have to stick to the information we always gave to you that
the only way we can really protect refugees going back to their homes is
that we need to have heavy forces to accompany them and we are only going
in as an international peace force once the heavy pieces, the artillery and
all the other five points which have already been mentioned several times
have been met.


JAKE LYNCH (SKY TV):
On something you said a little earlier, when Mr. Cook was here he said that
what was ruled out by NATO still was a major invasion against organised
armed resistance but there must be a question over how long the Yugoslavian
forces remain capable of offering such resistance. A moment or two ago,
you said that the criterion applied by the NAC as to whether to send in
ground troops would be that the Yugoslavian forces have to be recognisably
withdrawing from Kosovo. The inference I drew from Mr. Cook's remarks
was that they wouldn't have to be withdrawing, they might be still there
but pinned down and cut off to a sufficient extent that they were basically
helpless but would they actually have to start withdrawing in order for the
judgement to be made that they were now no longer capable of offering such
resistance?


JAMIE SHEA:
Jake, like you, I listened to what Robin Cook said and I think he was
totally clear on this. We believe that the air campaign still has work to
do - and it is doing that work - to degrade those forces. Yes, we have
achieved successes against those forces, yes, we are starting to put the
pressure on but at the same time we would like to see those Yugoslav forces
in an even worse state than they are today and when they are in that even
worse state - and that will come - they will have no option but to
withdraw, that will be the only option left open to them, the only gear on
their tank that will be used will be the reverse gear out of Kosovo. And
then the North Atlantic Council, as Robin Cook made clear, at that moment
will decide on the appropriate timing and conditions for the deployment of
an international security force but I did not believe that Robin Cook
suggested at all that the time for that is now, no, the air campaign has to
go on until we are further down the road as we will be shortly.


QUESTION:
Are the reports true that North Korea has sent a mission to Yugoslavia to
study Yugoslav strategy and tactics against NATO forces?


MAJOR GENERAL JERTZ:
I have no evidence on that, I have not seen the report.


JAMIE SHEA:
Me neither.


JULIE, NATIONAL PUBLIC RADIO:
This morning, the British Foreign Secretary stressed that the resolve is
greater than ever, the unity with the Alliance is unshaken, you yourself
have represented on many occasions that the NAC is solid and unfractured in
any way but if we stipulate that there is unity in expelling tyranny isn't
it accurate to say that there are differences emerging on how to stop that
tyranny? You have Italy floating the idea of perhaps a pause after the UN
crafts a resolution; you have fractures beginning to develop in the
Italian government, Germany has to look at this and now we look at Denmark
and doesn't all the diplomacy that is going on now risk chipping away at
some of those five points as negotiators and diplomats look for manoeuvre
room?


JAMIE SHEA:
No, I don't read that like that. I have always said about Belgrade that
actions speak louder than words and we apply the same yardstick to
ourselves, actions speak louder than words. There are lots of words but
what are the actions? The actions are that every night, every day this
operation continues and it wouldn't be continuing if it weren't based on
the continuing solidarity of the Allies so that is a fact.


Secondly, the five conditions remain the five conditions, nobody has said
that we should change them, everybody reaffirms them as the only realistic
basis for solving this crisis but at the same time NATO countries want a
diplomatic solution.


What you are seeing is not backing away from the five conditions, you are
seeing some proposals - welcome proposals - as to how we are going to put
those five conditions into effect when the time is right but that time has
not yet come. Everybody agrees that that time does not come before
Milosevic has withdrawn his forces and agreed to accept the conditions,
that time comes after he has done that so that is what the diplomacy is all
about.


But let me not give you the impression that there is, if you like, the
conflict in NATO and there is the diplomacy somewhere else in a different
organisation or in a different grouping of nations. No, the diplomacy is
here. We are not only interested in winning this conflict in a military
sense, we are interested in preparing for the diplomatic solution that has
to follow and it is the same countries that are on the one hand sending
their planes into the skies every night that by day are sending their
diplomats around to speak to each other to prepare a package - a road map
as I have called it - as to how those five conditions are going to be
concretely implemented.


I can assure you that if we are rock solid after six or seven weeks, then
we can be rock solid for another seven weeks or another seven weeks. As I
said earlier, every atrocity story represents a megawatt of increased
determination to see this through. What Milosevic is capable of is now so
visible, so obvious even to anybody who didn't realise it before, that we
realise that it is not in our interest to hand him any kind of victory in
Kosovo, we would simply be storing up a lot of trouble for ourselves for a
long time to come, everybody knows that and therefore there is this
determination to see it through.


As I have said, Julie, I don't expect all of our public opinion to be
terribly enthusiastic about that because conflicts are always difficult,
there is never a miracle solution, they are always won on the basis of
patience and perseverance but I can assure you that when this over and we
have justice done, I think a lot of people, people who perhaps are even
criticising NATO today, will turn round and say: "My God, we're really
glad that NATO did that because no matter how tough it was, the alternative
of simply being passive bystanders in all of this would be far worse!"


GREG:
General, can you confirm these reports we are seeing both from Washington
and London that the number of air strike sorties is going to step up to as
many as 700 per day by the end of the week, that would be a substantial
increase, can you confirm that number?


Jamie, two things from that. Number one, is it a fear of NATO that you
might end up losing the propaganda war if you step it up that much? We
are getting reports from a lot of Western journalists that now the Kosovar
Albanians are fleeing not just because of the Serbs but because they are
getting a little bit nervous about this bombing as well.


Secondly, Jamie, can you comment about these divisions that still seem to
be around right now about how much force is used, the debate over the
Apache helicopters, the debate over a possible ground offensive?


MAJOR GENERAL JERTZ:
An air campaign is a dynamic process and of course that is one of the
reasons why we do adjust the numbers according to the targets we have,
according to the plans we have and according to what we want to achieve.
We have seen already up to a total of 700 sorties. Yes, there are more
forces coming in, you know that, we already announced that and of course,
depending on how long this campaign will have to go on, the number of
sorties will be increased but I cannot be specific on the numbers at the
present time.


JAMIE SHEA:
Greg, on the first point, I am not interested in waging a propaganda war
against Belgrade, I don't think we could ever do as good as they could in
the propaganda stakes quite frankly and we are not going to even engage in
that particular battle. If President Milosevic was as good at economics
as he is at propaganda, Yugoslavia would be the Balkan tiger today,
particularly, as I said, given where it was in 1989. No, we will fight
with the humble instruments that we have at our disposal which is to tell
the facts as we know them as honestly and as accurately as we can so I am
quite happy to vacate the propaganda field to Belgrade. If a government
is only really good at propaganda then were have things got to?


I haven't yet heard any refugee say that he or she left his or her home
because of NATO bombing generally or if any have said that then I think
that they would be somewhat overwhelmed by the 99.9 per cent who say that
they left because they were forced out either at direct gunpoint by the
Serb security forces or simply because the conditions in terms of supplies
and food access had become so appalling or because the fear in which they
lived had become so overwhelming that they had no choice but to make a run
for it to the border and of course, this is difficult. Would you like to
leave your home, just abandon it, never knowing if you will come back?
You have got to remember that a lot of these people, despite the fear, stay
in their homes until the last minute because that is the only thing they
possess and they never know if they will go back to it or what condition it
will be in. They are very reluctant to go but at the end of the day the
conditions are so bad that they nonetheless are forced to do so.


And your last point, about the Apaches?


GREG:
Not just about the Apaches but also about the ground offensive. There
really does seem to be seem kind of internal discussion going on on a
couple of different fronts in terms of the amount of force.


JAMIE SHEA:
But that is about the international security force. This not about a
ground invasion versus a peace-keeping force, it is not that. We have been
through that debate some time ago and we came down clearly on the side of
an international security force once the violence has ended and that is
where are.


What the debate is about of course is what should be the timing of the
deployment of that force, what Robin Cook was addressing today; secondly,
what should be the specific tasks of that force given that we are going to
face a worse situation in Kosovo than we anticipated when we were still
thinking of a Rambouillet agreement with the consent of both sides; and
thirdly, what should be size of that international security force given the
deteriorated environment in Kosovo and the additional tasks, at least on a
temporary basis, that such a force would have to fulfil, so that is what it
is all about, it is not about resurrecting a ground invasion.


QUESTION:


Pour suivre sur la force internationale, oł en est l'OTAN dans sa revision
pour les troupes au sol et de quelle taille pourrait etre cette force, on
parlait de 26 a 28,000 hommes, on pourrait parler maintenant de 50,000
hommes, oł en est la revision et combien d'hommes cela pourrait-il
representer?


JAMIE SHEA:


La revision est simple. Le SACEUR a fourni ces premieres indications qui
vont etre soumis au comite militaire dans le courant de la journee apres
considere par le comite militaire et puis transfere au Conseil Atlantique.
Donc le Conseil va se saisir de ce dossier dans les jours qui viennent.
28000 etait effectivement le chiffre qui etait retenu au depart mais pour
l'instant il est beaucoup, beaucoup trop tot, et pour speculer et pour
confirmer un nouveau chiffre parce qu' avant de determiner le chiffre il
faut d'abord definer les taches . Ce sont les taches biensur qui
determinent le nombre.


QUESTION:


Il faudra beaucoup plus que prevu.


JAMIE SHEA:


Ca attendons voir. Mais de toute facon il faudra une force qui soit
suffissamment grande pour mener a bien son travail de securiser le Kosovo,
mais pour l'instant des chiffres comme 50,000 et d'autres que j'ai vu,
viennent de la speculation parce qu'il n'y a pas encore de decision du
conseil a cet egard


QUESTION: On parle toujours de KFOR?


Oui, ou moins c'etait la designation originale de l'OTAN, mais nous sommes
flexibles sur le nom. Comme Shakespeare a dit: "what's in a name, a rose
by any other name would be as sweet". Ce qui compte c'est le parfum de la
rose et pas le nom. Et le parfum de la rose doit consister en une force
robuste avec des regles d'engagement ferme, chaine de commandement ferme
noyau OTAN. pOUR autant que nous ayons l'accord sur la substance nous
pourrons etre tres flexibles sur le nom et meme je vous invite a faire vos
suggestions. Merci beaucoup.